History: Fiction or Science? (Chronology, No. 1)

Book Description

Recorded history is a finely-woven magic fabric of intricate lies about events predating the sixteenth century. There is not a single piece of evidence that can be reliably and independently traced back earlier than the eleventh century. This book details events that are substantiated by hard facts and logic, and validated by new astronomical research and statistical analysis of ancient sources.

Customer Reviews:

Calculations are only as good as your numbers.......2007-08-03

Yes, we can all agree that mainstream history is nearly 100% BS due to politics, economics, ego, problems with dating techniques, and various conspiracies. Agreed. But, I've been researching the distinct possibility that human history (in terms of civilizations) are much more ancient than we've been told, so coming across this book was very interesting to me. I wondered how Fomenko could be wrong (if at all) because he is very persuasive in his presentations. Then it dawned on me. If at previous times in prehistory, due to the various catastrophies that are well documented (comets, asteroids, planetary disruptions, plasma discharge, pole reversals, etc) the Earth was in a different position in relation to the sun, different tilt on its axis, different orbit, different rotation (in terms of velocity and DIRECTION), and the continents were in different positions, then would this not cause the ancients to see the sky (constellations) differently? In other words, is Fomenko making erronious assumptions about the physics of the Earth in pre-history, which then corrupt his data with regards to dating the relevant astrology? The last event to seriously disrupt our planet occured roughly 3500 years ago, according to other good researchers, so is it possible Fomenko has been confused by this? The vastly different physics of our planet in the not so distant past may explain this confusion, which is not to say the "mainstream" version of history is correct; on the contrary. I am not an expert in these fields, but wanted to see if this idea could spark discussion.

Pants on fire?.......2007-07-19

Will people ever read before spamming? Yes, Jesuits could not rewrite world history alone, they had help. Anyway, Dr Prof Acad A.Fomenko does not point to jesuits as the driving force of world wide history manipulation in published volumes 1,2,3;, actually he barely mentions the poor devils. Check it with 'Search inside' feature, please. China is rarely mentioned either, in fact, Dr Fomenko is completely eurocentric. Right, his theory contradicts all mainstream schools of history, because in their actual state they are all built on blatantly erroneus chronology. You don't need a mysterious cabal (conspiracy) to falsify history, the falsification is its modus operandi. It is inherent to history(ians) to falsify (distort) events, as it is inherent to humans to boast as it is inherent to power (authority) to legimize itself by referrring to glorious past made to its own order. Dr Prof Fomenko and team have identified scores of instances of such manipulation in Russian, European, etc.. history, and delivered valid statistical proof thereof. His own 'reconstruction' is completely another story. Forget c14 as a valid method of dating. W.Libby has initially discovered a brilliant method of INDEPENDENT dating. Too bad, c14 method has become a joke after a forced marrige with dendrochronology with consensual chronological scale inbuilt. Radiocarbon method can't stand blind tests, but is so very productive as a rubberstamp.

Accepted History & Chronology Must Be Changed. .......2007-04-09

There is no doubt that history as most know it is a sham, & institution's version of History both University & Church is fradulent & inaccurate. Everything was established with an agenda, The real "Dark Ages" are now when we have access to incredible amounts of information past authorities & more important 'common folk' didn't have but our institutions & educators are slow to evolve because of what has ignorantly & arrogantly been taught for too long. This is on many subjects not just Chronology.

For anyone to question "Why would a Mathematician have anything credible to say of History?" The answer is from Dr. Fomenko's preface in the book: "It would be worthwhile to remind the reader that in the XVI-XVII century Chronology was considered to be a subdivision of Mathematics." These volumes could possibly be some of the most important works to date & should be read by everyone with an interest in History, especially professors & educators who have a duty to the public. I have read both books & must say that 'Chronology 1' has some very eye opening & revolutionary information. Even if these volumes are part true the implications are profound & opens the doors to further investigations & questions which must be done. I speak several different lanquages & must say the logic Dr. Fomenko uses with "inflection" of words & words being read from left to right in one region & right to left in another then written backwards, the removal of vowels & get down to basics of words, or different cities & locations having the same name etc. is correct. Vowel usage has always been optional & varied, actually complicating linquistics & study. The first thing one has to understand is that words never had a fixed spelling in history like we do now, the spelling of words was mutable & regional, as well as names & titles of people were vast, varied & changed, NOTHING WAS FIXED or understood linear. Matters of Life & Death as well as financial profiteering yesterday & today were & are made with ignorant, illogical & conspiratorial views of history & reality, it's time people get closer to the Truth & society collectively grow up.

Very Interesting.......2007-03-07

It is a good proposal and I believe it will mature into something even better in the future. I think it deserves to be read.

History as Science Fiction.......2007-01-10

Anatoly Fomenko has written a very intriguing book, full of pictures, charts, and computer 'proof' of his thesis: backwards of AD900 we don't really know what happened or when. Between AD900 and AD1600 there is more certainty, but there is still a lot of fuzzy ground, and things don't get reliable until we get past the 1600's where the printing press made it very difficult for the perpetrators of this timeline manipulation to change anything that had been committed to print. The Dark Ages did not happen. Books were burned for a reason. One organization has doubled the actual length of its existence by expanding the real chronology. Read why.

I had always wondered why Christ died about AD33 and yet men waited until the 11th century to form the Knights Templar, the Cathars, etc and go after the Holy Land by force. Why the 1000 year gap? Turns out there wasn't more than a 10-12 year gap and he proves it using astronomy. This also implies that the planet is not as old as we have been told, and current Christian and other creationist scientists are already championing that idea without being aware of Fomenko's book. The two groups, creationist scientists and the Russian mathematical analysts corroborate each other. Fascinating.

Of course, all this flies in the face of what we have been told traditionally is the 'proper' chronology of western civilization, and most readers will experience 'cognitive dissonance' in reading this book. It means that our history going backwards from AD1600 becomes progressively more incorrect and unreliable until it cannot be trusted at all... in the space of 700-800 years.

Naturally, the curious, open-minded reader will want to know WHO did this, WHY, and did any of the events we think of as really ancient ever happen?
Dr. Fomenko is a respected scientist/mathematician at Moscow State University who has already answered these questions to the satisfaction of his initially skeptical colleagues. Most of them are now believers, a few still refuse to believe (the usual diehards), and of course the western press has ignored Fomenko's work -- for obvious reasons when you read the book. The ones who perpetrated this chronology ruse have a lot to answer for. They are still with us. That's why this book is a well-kept secret.

I gave the book a 4-star rating because I was unable to check out some of his claims; those I checked were as he said. But if even 1/3 of his claims are true, this punches a big hole in what we think is our history, the meaning of western civilization, our educational process (for repeating the ruse as gospel), and the trustworthiness of the organization that perpetrated this ruse, well-intentioned or not.

This book relates to current research into a Young Earth paradigm, to John Keel's discoveries about our planet, and Fr Malachi Martin's insights (in his now out-of-print books). We are indeed sheep who are manipulated and kept ignorant -- for a reason. While knowing what these men have to say may be the "booby prize" (as in: 'what can you do with this knowledge?'), it will provide interesting reading. Didn't someone say: "...and the Truth will set you free."?? For you to judge if this book contains the truth.

Jesus, King Arthur, and the Journey of the Grail: The Secrets of the Sun Kings

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Enjoyable read with fun research

Jesus, King Arthur, and the Journey of the Grail: The Secrets of the Sun Kings
Maurice Cotterell
Manufacturer: Bear & Company
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Paperback

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ASIN: 1591430534
Release Date: 2006-04-29

Book Description

Reveals how the super-science of the sun and the higher orders of spirituality are concealed and contained in the Holy Grail

• Connects the discovery of 4,000-year-old Celtic mummies in China with the transmission of this ancient knowledge

• Documents the truth of the Holy Grail’s connection with King Arthur and Joseph of Arimathea

• Confirms the pedigree of the Grail using secret information from the Mayan Pyramid of Inscriptions in Mexico and the Gateway of the Sun in Peru

Using the same knowledge that enabled him to break the codes of the Mayas, Peruvians, Egyptians, and Chinese, Maurice Cotterell now follows the migration of the Celts 4,000 years ago from Asia, across Europe, to Ireland. His account of this epic journey together with his knowledge of the secret codes of the Celts help him to identify and locate the Holy Grail, the actual cup used by Christ and his disciples at the Last Supper.

The author explains the true story of the Grail: how it contains the secret super-science of the sun and the higher orders of spirituality; how it was carried to England by Joseph of Arimathea; how in A.D. 453 it was found by King Arthur, who engraved it with the same esoteric information found on the Pyramid of Inscriptions in Palenque, Mexico, and the Gateway of the Sun at Tiahuanaco in ancient Peru. His discoveries reveal that the Grail does actually radiate light, in accordance with the Arthurian legends, proving that the so-called legends are actually based on fact. The author goes on to show how the holy cup was passed for safekeeping to the monks of Lindisfarne, who copied the secrets of the Grail into the Lindisfarne Gospels and the Book of Kells. Fleeing from Viking raids, the monks carried their treasures to Ireland, explaining how the cup found its way to the Dublin Museum--where it rests today.

Customer Reviews:

Enjoyable read with fun research.......2006-08-29

This book was an enjoyable read. Like many coast to coast authors his research is great and very interesting, but ... The conclusions he comes up with I do not share with him. He relies too much on a set of numbers and that could be found on any evidence if looked hard enough for. Overall a fun and interesting book, but still doesnt prove his claims to my satisfaction. File this book under specualtion.

The Pagan Christ: Recovering the Lost Light

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comparative mythology
Good Introduction
"Everyone is welcome at my fathers table"
To Those Too Blinded to See
Too Lacking

The Pagan Christ: Recovering the Lost Light
Tom Harpur
Manufacturer: Walker & Company
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Hardcover

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ASIN: 0802714498

Book Description

A provocative argument for a mystical, rather than historical, understanding of Jesus, leading to a radical rebirth of Christianity in our time.

For forty years, scholar and religious commentator Tom Harpur has challenged church orthodoxy and guided thousands of readers on subjects as controversial as the true nature of Christ and life after death. Now, in his most radical and groundbreaking work, Harpur digs deep into the origins of Christianity.

Long before the advent of Jesus Christ, the Egyptians and other peoples believed in the coming of a messiah, a virgin birth, a madonna and her child, and the incarnation of the spirit in flesh. While the early Christian church accepted these ancient truths as the very basis of Christianity, it disavowed their origins. What had begun as a universal belief system built on myth and allegory was transformed, by the third and fourth centuries A.D., into a ritualistic institution based on a literal interpretation of myths and symbols. But, as Tom Harpur argues in The Pagan Christ, "to take the Gospels literally as history or biography is to utterly miss their inner spiritual meaning."

At a time of religious extremism, Tom Harpur reveals the virtue of a cosmic faith based on ancient truths that the modern church has renounced. His message is clear: Our blind faith in literalism is killing Christianity. Only with a return to an inclusive religion where Christ lives within each of us will we gain a true understanding of who we are and who we are intended to become. The Pagan Christ is a book of rare insight and power that will reilluminate the Bible and change the way we think about religion.

Customer Reviews:

comparative mythology.......2007-06-10

I agree with C. Morrison's review in giving Harpur credit for courage and self-honesty. Few books on this subject convey the personal experience as he does. I'm always happy to read a book by someone who is capable of being critical without becoming negative. His book is inspiring. I would've only given his book 4 stars if it weren't for this aspect.

That said, as a source of information on the Pagan origins of Christianity, there are better books. But he seems to have intended this as an introduction and its very good for someone who is new to the ideas. I'd still recommend this book even to those more well-informed. How he clarifies the distinction between myth and literalism is worth the read alone. Also, his views about how Paganism and Christianity aren't in conflict is much needed in the world right now.

If you're intrigued by or uncertain of the ideas in this book, then there are many other books that go into greater detail. Freke and Gandy are great writers that also are very accessible. If you'd like more quotes from original sources, then Acharya S has two very large and thorough books. And Robert M. Price seems good, but I've only read a little of him.

Good Introduction.......2007-06-06

This book is a good introduction to the subject at hand. Not too long or too difficult to read, and does a good job of covering the basics. Great for someone just starting to delve into this subject. If one wants to move on to some more in depth study, I suggest 'Lost Light: An Interpretation of Ancient Scriptures' by Alvin Boyd Kuhn. Difficult in comparison, but worth it. But if you are new to the subject, start with Harpur!!

"Everyone is welcome at my fathers table" .......2007-04-25

First off, please forgive my spelling mistakes in this review. Thank you.

I wanted to post my opinion here to help my fellow brothers and sisters who feel threatend by this book, which naturaly can envoke debate and spiritual argument if one has yet to see the light. I invite us all to remember that no matter what our faith is, we are all climbing The Mountain of Life (which is God) togeter, which brings us to the One and only God, and it happens all in Gods time, so we must be patient and steadfast. We are all taking slightly different or even very different paths up this mountain and it is best if we focus on our own steps up the path if we want to make progress, rather than wasting the Divine time which is gifted to us, by focusing on other peoples steps, which in the end, will prove to be a waste of time anyways.

With respect to everyones opinions on this Book and its topic, I feel inspired to offer an alternitive perspective to the philisophical/ religious argument concerning the Books ideas, which is this - Does it really matter if Jesus was a living person or a myth? I mean after all, can anything be proved to be real in this world? Ask any good scientist? To prove one, you need the other! So with out one, there is no other, therefor is anything real by it self? The answer is no, if there is no other to validate one's reality. Thus the illusion of time comes into existence, and will not stop, untill in one's own perseption, all becomes one, in it's self! But all this means nothing if you are not experiencing it, otherwise, it is all ego and a big silly mind game, that eventually gets old and boring! What really matters is action! Isn't Jesus's teachings and our willingness to follow through with them matter more than anything else? Talk is cheap, a lesson i continue to learn!

I have had few white light experiences given to me from God in my life thus far (32 years old this time around the block, I suppose), and they have taught me a few things, two of which are - 1.) That when I am close to God and in his blissful and peaceful presence, the physical world is not real, and 2.) when I am not close to God, the world is very real. When I am close to God and in his presence, I do not think with my mind, because I have no fear and no doubt and thus far no need to question the reality or existence of anything. I am, in the, I am state! In these experiences I fail to recognize my body and mind as being me, beacuse I have no attachment or desires, which means no fear, thus the physical world in which my body and mind live in thus fail to be of any real importance at all, primarily becasue I am identifying my self as being a immortal Spirit, which is miraculously and paradoxically, present to be in this world and out of this world at the same time - thus time fails to exist and looses all value and meaning. ie - When "Thy kindom come, thy will be done,On earth as it is in heaven" - which means, when we are with God, Gods will is being done and our will has aligned with his will, thus our minds become silent and the world no longer seems real because our minds are no longer interpreting the world, because they are focused on God only, with sincere faith and focus. Needless to say, after having such experiences as these, discussing an argument such as whether Jesus physically lived or not seems to me, with all respect, to be an utter waste of time, from where I am standing anyways. But if you have not had these kind of spiritual experiences and have not realized yet personally that time can be real and can be not real, according to your level of conciousness in any given moment, then I fully understand why so many people are so heated about this argument, because there whole belief system is being disturbed. Is'nt the goal to have no beliefs and to let go and let god? "the father doeth the works" - I probobly should not be speaking about this right now as I have been told by the wise not to disturb people when they are asleep, but I am taking a risk in hopes someone may find this all helpful (but probobly I am writing all of this out of ego subconciously!) Please know too that since I have had some begginer experiences that have openned me but for the grace of God, and they have come as gifts from God, I feel I am only starting to climb the path now, and have barely begun. The real work of trusting in God is ahead of me now, and it is becoming very challenging to say the least!

I hope I can help as aposed to hinder people's spiritual lives. I ask you, what did it mean when Jesus said "even the least amung you can do all that I have, and even greater things" I believe that it means we all can and will some day, reach the mountain top, in which all our lives only purpose is to climb it, and then to reach it, and then to do as God instructs us to do from there on out!

I pray that people could respect each others spiritual views more and to realize that Jesus, along with all the known Masters of the world, all teach the same thing - to love everything as thy self, and to choose to have sincere faith as much as humanly possible in ones own life, as aposed to choosing to believe in our intellectual reason, which by natures law, will only divide as aposed to unite, and will only lead to fear, doubt, debate and pain.

So in closing, I question all the people who remarked on this book, and the person who wrote it as well, and I ask you all one last time, why does all this talk of history matter - wouldnt it be better to focus on openning to the light, by focusing on God and also trying to help a less fortunate person who is in need as well? The world needs to stop debating (which is caused by Fear, doubt in ones beliefs, our pride which keeps us ridged and closed, and our false identification as being a mind and body) and to start loving God sincerely, and wholeheartedly. Its that simple - why do we all fail to see this and fail to come together and to support each opther? I would love to go to church or be apart of a community, if I could only find a church that is not ignorant - I find myself praying to forgive them father, they know no what they do, more than anything when I go to a church. We are all hypicrits and scared to death - thats a part of being human, so why dont we help each other to accept this and to then support each other to focus on God and doing his will, instead of bickering over whether Jesus is a myth or not? God only knows! All I know is I am working towards adopting the code of love and tollerence and eventually I plan to make the world my family one day, at which time I would not have found it neceasary to write all this like I did - but thatsokay - because I am right where I am supposed to be, and so are'nt you! There are no mistakes in god's world, ie "and everything he created is good"

God Bless and may the light change you! Keep Climbing, I hope I will, as long as God continues to grace me with the ability!

To Those Too Blinded to See.......2006-12-07

Tom Harpur's "The Pagan Christ" is well researched---something to be expected from a Rhodes Scholar and one who has spent his life in a deeper search for truth.

It is curious that here we are in the year 2006 and people still attempt to crush what they consider heresy with unsubstantiated lies. I was raised in the Methodist Church and even in that decidedly non-dogmatic protestant sect; there was pressure not to think of Christ outside of what we were told. Tom Harpur has been breaking through the cloud for much of his career. In this book he encourages us all to look at the deeper and more profound spiritual truths of the Christ mythology----that we all have the ability to tap into that deep spiritual richness of the Christian Faith.

With all the madness in the world now over religion, we should all take a fresh look at these various fundamentalist groups in the world and the damage they are now bringing us all, be they Islam, Judaism or Christianity.

Thank you Tom Harpur.

Too Lacking.......2006-11-07

While I enjoyed the idea put forth of a Mystical Christ(o), this book left too many unanswered questions. It does not address the idea of sin and salvation. Also it is not an easy read with all the references to source materials throughout the text. There has to be better books on this subject out there.

The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David

Average customer rating:

Less Than Convincing, But Still Useful to Some Readers
Very interesting
Fresh and thought provoking
Turgid and clueless
Excellent Insights into OT Textual World

The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David
Thomas L. Thompson
Manufacturer: Basic Books
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Hardcover

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ASIN: 0465085776
Release Date: 2005-04-12

Book Description

From a prominent scholar, a provocative argument that the Biblical characters of Jesus and David should be viewed not as historical figures, but as embodiments of Babylonian, Egyptian, and Near Eastern traditions.

Since the eighteenth century, scholars and historians studying the texts of the Bible have attempted to distill historical facts and biography from the mythology and miracles described there. That trend continues into the present day, as scholars such as those of the "Jesus Seminar" dissect the Gospels and other early Christian writings to separate the "Jesus of history" from the "Christ of faith." But with The Messiah Myth, noted Biblical scholar Thomas L. Thompson argues that the quest for the historical Jesus is beside the point, since the Jesus of the Gospels never existed.

Like King David before him, says Thompson, the Jesus of the Bible is an amalgamation of themes from Near Eastern mythology and traditions of kingship and divinity. The theme of a messiah-a divinely appointed king who restores the world to perfection-is typical of Egyptian and Babylonian royal ideology dating back to the Bronze Age. In Thompson's view, the contemporary audience for whom the Old and New Testament were written would naturally have interpreted David and Jesus not as historical figures, but as metaphors embodying long-established messianic traditions. Challenging widely held assumptions about the sources of the Bible and the quest for the historical Jesus, The Messiah Myth is sure to spark interest and heated debate.

Customer Reviews:

Less Than Convincing, But Still Useful to Some Readers.......2006-07-30

If you wish to read four hundred pages of detailed, well worked out, and adventurous exegisis of the Old Testatment as it applies to David and Jesus as myth fulfilling figures or fantasies, this should be your cup of tea. However, with an occassional tip of the hat to other ancient Near Eastern literary sources, this is what Thompson's book boils down to. Even in his essay on "The Myth of the Dying and Rising God" where one would expect a world of pagan material, Thompson's concerns are almost exclusively centered on the exegisis of OT material.

It is at this interface between OT material and the prior mythic traditions and literature of the Near East where Thompson is at his weakest. Considering his academic specialty, this is no surprise. However, his sub-title, "The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David," does not read Old Testament roots. Therefore, his project is a questionable success at best for the open minded. To his credit, he never actually indicates that it his intention to disprove a historical grounding of the figures of David and Jesus. This book should be read as massive cautionary to reading too much history into the Bible.

Other than general cranky dismissals of academics that do not agree with him, Thompson launches forth assuming that you, the reader, agree with his methodology and are up to assessing the validity of his exegisis. To fully assess and appreciate this work, the reader must be nearly as accomplished in OT exegetics as Thompson. That is a tall order. No alternative readings are supplied. Moments of crystal clarity are rare. Expect to put in a great deal of work for what you get. And what you get out of this book is directly dependent on the level of knowledge you bring to the task.

Interestingly, as would be expected, when dealing with the New Testament, Thompson spends twice as much ink on Matthew as he does on either Mark or Luke. Material on the Gospel of John is almost entirely missing. That Matthew the most "Jewish" of the gospels is most dependent on the OT should come as no great surprise. Also, in Thompson's scheme of things, the author of this gospel would have had to be as erudite as Thompson with subtle fully formed intentions regarding the use of myth and symbol. Was this the intention of the author of this particular "good news?" With a literacy rate of three percent or less in the Ancient World, this is an exceedingly problematic intent for the author of the gospel. We are better off for having this book. The only question is, will you be better informed after reading it? This book is very heavy intellectual lifting.

Very interesting.......2006-03-29

Thomas L Thompson, biblical scholar of the 'minimalist' school, here turns his attention the commonality of tropes in the stories of Jesus and David as Messiahs. Never clearly defining Jesus as never existing, he, nevertheless, raises some pertinant criticisms of the quest for a historical Jesus, arguing that the gospels are a coherent whole; that Jesus' teachings cannot be separated from the miracles etc to construct a scholars' historical version of the man from Galilee.

Thompson underpins this critique by highlighting the dependence of texts on each other for tropes and metaphors; his treatment of the temple cleansing is very enlightening, how his saying conflates Isaiah and Jeremiah to contrast and show who the true pure of Israel are. He also demonstrates that the use of 'OT' texts by the gospel writers are not just for prophetic proofs of Jesus' messiahship, but to construct a theology consistent with both Judaism and other Near Eastern thought.

Very insightful, and a useful book to reference whether for or against Thompson's argument.

Fresh and thought provoking.......2006-01-13

Thomas L. Thompson's "The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David" deals with one of the most important and least discussed topics in New Testament studies: did a "historical Jesus" ever exist? Most "historical Jesus" scholars assume, without making the case for, the existence of Jesus, and that with the proper methodology and critical analysis of the gospels, we can find the authentic voice of Jesus. Most arguments for "Jesus as a myth" have been based on lack of reliable historical evidence and skepticism of the gospels, due to the fact that they were written with theological, not historical concerns in mind. Thompson takes these similar arguments but proves them from a compartive study between the Bible and other Near Eastern literature, showing that the New Testament is just another extension of an already existing discourse in the Near East.

Thompson argues that the New Testament is a work of literature that is concerned with theological discourse, and not history. Furthermore, there is little that is unique about the sayings, motifs, plotlines, morals, and literary styles. They can all be found in the Hebrew Bible, which in turn can be traced back to ancient Near Eastern literature. The dominant of these motifs is the Near Eastern concept of a "messiah" or king that acts as god's agent to liberate and bring peace and order to his people. This appears everywhere from inscriptions by Egyptian and Babylonian kings to the Psalms to the New Testament.

While there were many moments where I became highly convinced of Thompson's thesis, I still found several flaws to warrant a four star rating. A. Thompson tends to be way too skeptical. He even denies the synpotic problem and the borrowing of material between the gospel writers, without making a sensible case for it. He believes that most of the inscriptions of Near Eastern Kings are mythological propaganda and have little to do with history, without making the case. He even early on declares that Paul is just a name used by an author(s) of 1 Thessalonians. B. When demonstrating the roots of a "saying" of Jesus, in the texts, Thompson tends to loose his way and go off on another chain of themes that have nothing to do with the first. At points, he completely departs from Jesus and David and goes through an unrelated theme/character to either person. This can get very confusing and frustrating. C. I wish the inscriptions in the back were the actual texts and not just the summaries. They would have made Thompson's case stronger.

With that said, "Messiah Myth" is a fresh and thought provoking analysis of the historicity of Jesus, and a delight to read through the stories of the Hebrew Bible and Near East again.

Turgid and clueless.......2005-08-22

I picked this up as a $0.95 proof copy, because Freke & Gandy reference Prof. Thompson extensively in the chapter on Christianity in their new book, The Laughing Jesus: Religious Lies and Gnostic Wisdom. I'm glad I only paid $0.95, however, and will be donating this to the Housing Works charity bookstore soon. It shares two traits with most academic writing: it's atrociously written, and almost willfully obtuse about the deeper implications of its subject.

As for the writing: apart from the usual dreary academic prose, Thompson at no time bothers to formulate what his thesis is, or tell you how what he's analyzing supports it. Instead, one example after another from the New or Old Testament is selected, apparently at random, discussed a bit, and then dropped. So I am not at all sure if I have succeeded in "getting" his point, and so other reviewers may take me to task for "missing it." Tough; life is short, and I can't waste all my time on this book.

As far as I can tell, the thesis is that the writings of the OT and NT are literature, and need to be analyzed as such, not used as clues to determine the existence and nature of some historical figure. Thus (with my attempts to straighten out the syntax in brackets):

"It is especially difficult to determine whether we are in fact dealing with the story of a particular man's life, [in other words] a biography illustrating values we hold because of him. We may [instead] be dealing with a narrative figure, whose function is to illustrate universal or eternal values." [p. 136]

Thus while Schweitzer found a "historical Jesus" who was a failed apocalyptic prophet, the scholars of the Jesus Seminar (Crossan, Borg, etc.) have tried to locate "original" sayings from which they deduce some kind of Cynic philosopher or Galilean peasant. But both miss the point: "Jesus" is a fictional character, part of a story designed to illustrate and promote certain moral and political values, which was written by drawing on a host of literary themes present in Hebrew culture (the good king, who restores his kingdom of justice, which will last forever, etc.).

While Thompson is right so far, he fails to bring in the role of the Caesar Cult in framing the Jesus story; Jesus as a pro-underclass alternative to the triumphant Roman Caesar. More importantly, there isn't a trace of awareness of entheogens, mystery religions, and other experiential elements that permeated all Hellenistic culture. Like most (all?) scholars, Thompson seems to think the ancients were like him: sitting around reading and writing bad prose, and occasionally daring to take a swig of watered down "wine". Freke and Gandy, while not perfect, at least have a clue here.

Thus, I would suggest that if you want to follow up on Thompson from reading Freke & Gandy, just stick with them. (...)

Pace the the valediction of earlier reviewer, who had set himself the thankless task of actually trying to make sense of this book's argument page by page, I would suggest that the onus of proof is on those who claim someone *is* historical, especially if the account they offer of his life reads like "Goldilocks and the Three Bears"

Pros: Jesus is "myth-only" and his story is rooted in OT themes of kings and rulership;

Cons: Unreadable prose, academic cluelessness; lack of any input from, or awareness of, entheogens, altered state experience, mysteries, or even the Caesar Cult.

Excellent Insights into OT Textual World .......2005-04-24

The Historical Jesus Quest is really composed of two quests. One involves sifting through the texts and developing methodologies for dealing with the data. The other involves situating the figure of Jesus in the proper historical context.

The battle over the proper context for Jesus has been one of least-recognized but most profound of the various struggles among New Testament exegetes. After WWII exegetes began to strongly emphasize the Jewishness of Jesus. Laudably, this was partly in response to the "Aryan Jesus" of 19th century scholarship, that eventually found its apotheosis in Nazi doctrines. However, it was also in response to the arguments of scholars from the schools of myth and comparative religions, who had argued in the period prior to the Second World War that Jesus resembled similar figures of the ancient Near East and Mediterranean. By reinforcing the Jewishness of Jesus and delinking him from the surrounding cultures, New Testament scholars sought to protect him from the assaults of the comparative religions school.

At first glance it is easy to mistake Thomas L. Thompson's The Messiah Myth for a revival of this school. Don't. The Messiah Myth does not attempt, as the comparative religions school did, to seek out parallels to Jesus and then link Jesus to them. Rather, Thompson attempts to recover the Greater Context: an enormous toolkit of ideas, themes, and observations that dominate the literature of the Near East, and find expression in all of its major texts, including the Bible, and in all of its major heroes, including Jesus and David.

Despite the subtitle The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David, Thompson's book does not focus strongly on Jesus. The vast majority of the work consists of exploring the Old Testament and other Near Eastern texts to show that they all make use of the same complex of tropes in composing their various stories. This complex of tropes includes reversals (of rich and poor, the powerful and the peasantry, the weak and the strong), descent-ascent motifs, messiah as priest, king, and warrior motifs, and similar structures and idea familiar to readers of the Tanakh and the Christian writings. Thompson thus does not seek to show that Jesus is a myth by close analysis of the stories about him, like G.A Wells and other mythicists have done. Instead, he offers a rich new context against which the figure of Jesus can be evaluated.

Thompson opens the book with a chapter entitled "Historicizing the figure of Jesus" that is apparently intended as a critique of the various Historical Jesus figures that New Testament scholarship has produced. He observes:

* "A wary reader does well to recognize the wish fulfillment of Schweitzer's figure of Jesus. His mistaken prophet is historical primarily because he does not mirror the Christianity of Schweitzer's time. But the assumption that this mistaken prophet of the apocalypse is a figure appropriate to first century Judaism is itself without evidence. The prophetic figure Mark presented, and the assumed expectations associated with his coming, belong to the surface of Mark's text. Schweitzer did not consider why Mark presented such a figure or such expectations. Nor did he consider whether the life of such a person and the expectations of his coming in fact belonged to the historical reality of first century Jews in Palestine, or whether both expectations and figure were literary tropes. Then the figure of the messiah might express Judaism's highest values within Mark's story does not imply that either the figure or expectations about him were to be found in early first-century historical Palestine."(p6-7)

The opening chapter serves notice: the historical Jesus is an assumption, rather than a discovery, of scholarship. "Dating sayings common to Q and Thomas as an "earliest level" of sayings and suggesting a time between 30 and 60 CE for their origin is a conclusion drawn from the assumption that there was an oral tradition derived from a historical Jesus' teaching."(p11) From whence, then, stems this figure

* "As we will see in the following chapters, the most central sayings in the gospels were spoken by many figures of ancient literature. That they are "sayings of Jesus" is to be credited to the author who put them in his mouth. Many sayings the [Jesus] seminar identifies as "certainly authentic" are well-known and can be dated centuries earlier than the New Testament. The very project of the Jesus Seminar is anchored in wishful thinking. Evidence for the prehistory of these sayings is so abundant and well attested that we can trace a continuous literary tradition over millennia."(p11)

Having sounded the eschatological alarm, Thompson slowly bids the Gospels goodbye, and enters the world of the Old Testament. In the second chapter, "The Figure of the Prophet", there is much back-and-forth between the Gospel stories and the Old Testament, but by the time we get to chapter four, "The Song for a Poor Man", the Gospels have been left behind, and we plunge into a world of international texts from antiquity, each full of themes the echo, extend, comment on, and interact with, the recurring tropes that make up the Tanakh.

Thompson builds his reading of the texts by searching out themes common throughout the Near East, collecting texts from many places. Writing on the Good King, he says:

* "Some of our stories serve as memorials to the king, while others are dedications of a cult place. Thirteen of the twenty-one inscriptions are presented in autobiographical form, where the king plays the role of author as well as subject. Eight present the story of the king in the third person. The Idrimi stele (no. 13), which is engraved on a statue of the king, presents its first-person form by locating the closing lines in a cartoon balloon coming out of the king's mouth. In spite of the autobiographical form, some of these inscriptions are likely posthumous."(p157)

The themes he builds function as tropes, recurring themes that appear in texts all over the Near East.

For example, in the Near East there is a common trope: a "utopian, comprehensive, and transcendent" peace that is the goal of every king's rule. Thompson identifies this peace in many different texts (including in an appendix), including tales about Idrimi, Nabonidus, and Esarhaddon, as well as David.

At his best when building his collection of tropes, The Messiah Myth falters whenever it comes near the Gospels, giving the impression that Thompson is wielding a hammer in whose presence everything attempts to turn into nails. After establishing the existence of a trope referring to the children and the kingdom, Thompson then turns to the Gospel versions:

* "Of the six occurrences of the trope Crossan calls "kingdom and children" sayings, four are classified as independent and two dependent. Only the authority of scholarly tradition of the primacy of Mark supports the judgment that the very close variations of the saying "Let the children come to me and do not hinder them; for to such belong the kingdom of heaven" (Mt 19:14) and "Let the children come to me and do not hinder them; for to such belong the kingdom of God" (Lk 18:16) are dependent on the similar saying in Mark: "Let the little children come to me; do not prevent them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God" (Mk 10:14). This saying, nearly identical in all three gospels, clearly offers a common trope, but the primacy of Mark's version, including the phrase "kingdom of God" he shares with Luke, does not stand on its own merits. The assumption that Mark is the source for the versions of Matthew and Luke is unprovable. Similarly, that the saying in Mark is the most likely original can be shown to be without merit."(p76)

While it is quite true that any sayings tradition is ultimately an assumption of scholars, that is not the case with the relationship between the Synoptic Gospels, where scholars possess all three of the relevant texts. Thompson either does not understand, or does not care to understand, the complexities of the Synoptic problem and the way that it has been demonstrated to the satisfaction of most scholars that the first gospel written was Mark. Right or wrong, the priority of Mark is a conclusion, not an assumption.

This dismissal of modern scholarly understandings means that The Messiah Myth interacts largely with the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, when the most historically important Gospel is that of Mark. Thompson apparently regards these writings as largely independent, and locates their similarities in the use of common tropes rather than literary dependence. This position is indefensible, and does nothing for the book's credibility.

Nevertheless, for those of us interested in the New Testament and in the Bible in general, there are innumerable insights and understandings. Thompson writes with an assurance and erudition that commands our attention, and manages to suppress any pesky doubts that might arise when we observe his cavalier attitude toward New Testament scholarship. Using the insights he develops from the tropes he collects, Thompson is often able to correct scholarly misapprehensions:

* "Like the 'kingdom of God,' the metaphor of my father's kingdom is not apocalyptic in the sense that it implies expectations of the end of the world as Schweitzer thought. It is rather a utopian and idealistic metaphor for a world of justice. In ancient Near Eastern and biblical literature, it is related to the figure of the savior-king who, by reestablishing divine rule, returns creation to the original order."(p198)

Because Thompson functions at the level of tropes, larger themes that govern the structure of texts, there is actually little here that is useful against the figure of Jesus as a historical figure. Despite his complaints about New Testament scholarship Thompson himself provides no answers to the questions he raises. Showing that tropes are part and parcel of ancient texts simply undermines Thompson's own implicit argument against a historical Jesus, for many of the texts that Thompson uses to support his case are either about, or from, historical figures. Hence it is easy to argue that the Gospel writers simply cast their historical figure in the standard Near Eastern format, and dismiss Thompson with a wave of the broader theme. Mythicism will never advance until it begins to churn out detailed, verse-by-verse readings of the relevant texts that show precisely how they are built out of literary convention, pre-existent sayings, Old Testament passages, themes, and concepts, and literary tropes and broader mythic themes. For that purpose Thompson will provide useful insight, but no decisive view.

Despite the title, those who come to this book seeking arguments against Jesus historicism will be disappointed. But readers who pick this volume in search of new understandings of old texts will not leave the table hungry. There Thompson pours out a cornucopia which this reviewer's New Testament-oriented interests cannot hope to adequately capture. I highly recommend The Messiah Myth to anyone with a general interest in ancient Near Eastern mythology and story, including the Bible texts. For them, The Messiah Myth will be bread to the hungry, water to the thirsty, clothes to the naked, and a ferryboat to the boatless.

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When's he going to write another book like this?!
One of the Best and Most Interesting Christ Myth Books!
The Invention of the Christian Religion
Dud

The Fabrication of the Christ Myth
Harold Leidner
Manufacturer: Survey Pr
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Paperback

Comparative Religion | Religious Studies | Religion & Spirituality | Subjects | Books
ASIN: 0967790107

Book Description

"The Fabrication of the Christ Myth" is a critical study of Christian origins and early Christianity, examining from a critical stand-point the legends and tales surrounding Christ in his role as the Son of God. The book is thoroughly researched and documented, and is based on reference materials from books put out by recognized scholars in the field and historical translations of that time period. The reader is invited to enter on a voyage of discovery.

Customer Reviews:

When's he going to write another book like this?!.......2005-06-29

Probably the best & most succinct account of the "pure myth" school of thought regarding Christian origins that I've read. Detractors & other defenders of the the faith have predictably trotted out their usual lame & irrelevent arguments such as Mr Leidner being an Atheist(so?)& not trained as a religious scholar(and...?) I've yet to see a review by any religionist or "classicly trained" scholar specificly examining & refuting Mr. Leidner's factual analysis. He effectively exposes Christianism as one of history's most comprehensive & effective frauds. My only (minor) criticism is his dating of Mark as much later than CE 70-which has effectively been dated no later than CE 75 by most reputable secular scholars. Me? I'll readily cop to being an Atheist. Want to argue with me? stick to the facts or don't waste my time. Great book. On par w/authors such as Wheless,Doherty,Freke,& Zindler(if you can deal w/ the latter's bitterness & rage.)

One of the Best and Most Interesting Christ Myth Books!.......2004-06-01

4.5 Stars

If this book were somewhat larger and more encompassing, I would easily give it five stars, because it possesses not only quality but also some unique insight into the centuries-old Christ myth studies. As an expert on mythology, religion and the Christ myth in particular, I found this book to be surprisingly eye-opening--surprising because I have studied hundreds of books and articles on the subject dating back centuries.

Leidner's uniqueness can be found in his approach in discussing the infamous Josephus passage called "the Testimonium Flavianum," which has been demonstrated--nay, PROVED--for centuries to have been a forgery. Leidner lists the some 20 Jesuses Josephus DOES discuss, most of them very insignificant yet nevertheless meriting far more attention by Josephus than "Jesus of Nazareth."

Highly significant is Leidner's epiphany regarding the use of the Greek Old Testament ("Septuagint") by the New Testament writers, an insight I have never encountered before but that is absolutely critical to the Christ myth position. To wit, the writers of the New Testament were so incompetent and removed from the alleged events they were writing about that they made gross errors in the geography of what is essentially a tiny region, because they used the outdated text of the Septuagint as the basis for their historical fiction. A 90-mile span from Capernaum to Jerusalem comprises the entire area for the drama unfolded in the gospel fable. In this area, there was "a common language, Aramaic, and the customs and usages were known to all." Nevertheless, the gospel authors are blatantly unfamiliar with the territory, and their descriptions are entirely anachronistic. For example, this small area had been urbanized for decades and centuries; yet, the gospel writers discuss shepherds and large areas set aside for sheep--sheep that had no place in first century Judea, Samaria and Galilee. In response to the gospel claim concerning the Baptist's "preaching in the wilderness," Rev. Robert Taylor appropriately asked, "And what wilderness was that?"

Josephus's description of Galilee in his "Wars of the Jews" (III.III.1) names "204 villages and 15 fortified towns" and--while perhaps overstated ("the cities lie here very thick; and the very many villages there are here, are everywhere so full of people...")--makes it clear that the placement by the gospel writers of the Jesus myth in wild badlands is completely erroneous and fictitious. Another humorous, anachronistic error in "God's infallible word" occurs with the parable of the sower, the narrator of which is unfamiliar with the plow, while the parable itself is "told to 'great multitudes' who have taken time out from sheep-herding and stone age agriculture."

Leidner also points out that while Josephus describes the Galileans as hardy people, the gospel writers have leper colonies and sickly people all about. In addition, the gospel writers use names from the Greek Old Testament for places that had been designated otherwise for centuries. Using the Septuagint for the fable's topography is equivalent to an American writer erroneously placing a modern tale in 12th century Europe.

Overall, Leidner's work is not only interesting but also important.

Acharya S
Archaeologist, Historian, Mythologist, Linguist
Author, "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold" and "Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled"

The Invention of the Christian Religion.......2003-07-29

This is well-researched book by a laymen who is uniquely qualified to undertake the topic by virtue of his background as both a lawyer and patent research attorney and his life-long dedication to the topic. The author convincingly proves his thesis that the Christian Gospel scriptures are invented. Without deprecating Mr. Leidner's fine study, and without arguing with the substance of his reasoned conclusions, one might however disagree with his methodology and interpretive paradigm. For those interested in books that also utilize the "invention" hypothesis but come to a different conclusion, they might read Saint Saul: A Skeleton Key to the Historical Jesus (Oxford University, 2000) and Surpassing Wonder: The Invention of the Bible and the Talmuds (Harcourt & Brace, 1998), both by Dr. Donald Akenson, Guggenheim Fellow, Rockefeller Foundation writer in residence, and Trillium Book Award winner. And perhaps Mr. Leidner's conclusions can be interpreted differently by use of the "Hellenization paradigm," discussed in Leidner's book but put into an entire contextual framework in Plato's Gift to Christianity: The Gentile Preparation for and The Making of the Christian Faith by Dr. Jerry Dell Ehrlich (2001). For other books of this genre see: Albert Schweitzer, The Quest for the Historcial Jesus (1907), Lionel M. Jensen, Manufacturing Confucianism (Duke University, 1997), Ibn Warraq, The Quest for the Historical Muhammed (Prometheus, 2000), The Invention of Religion ed. by Derek Peterson and Darren Walhot (Rutgers University 2002), Wesley P. Marquardt, Inventing Mormonism (Books West, 1998), Nachman Ben-Yehuda, The Masada Myth (Univerity of Wisconsin, 1995), Nachman Ben-Yehuda, Sacrificing Truth: Archaeology and the Myth of Masada (Prometheus, 2002), and Sharada Sugirthrajah, Constructions of Hinduism (Taylor and Francis, 2003). The Fabrication of the Christ Myth is highly commended.

Dud.......2003-03-09

The writer of this book is a person who is a well red amateur in the field rather than being a specialist. He is a free thinker who tries to suggest that the Gospels are not based on historical truth but are fictitious. The broad method is to suggest that a number of things suggest that the gospels are not historical. These relate to a lack of knowledge about Jewish customs and some other issues such as the geography of the area.

It is then suggested that different parts of the gospels are a transcription of some aspects of the story of Joshua and that other parts are a reworking of the fate of the Jewish community in Alexandria under the Romans. (Some prominent Jews were crucified)

The book is a rather plodding read. The main problem however is that the book simply relies on assertion to suggest the central thesis rather than anything else. There is no real explanation of who is meant to have written the material, their social background and the motives and mechanics of the process.

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Classic studies

In Quest of the Hero
Otto Rank , Fitzroy Richard Somerset Raglan , and Alan Dundes
Manufacturer: Princeton University Press
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Paperback

Folklore & Mythology | Social Sciences | Nonfiction | Subjects | Books
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The Hero: A Study in Tradition, Myth and Drama (Dover Books on Literature & Drama)

Beyond Psychology

Truth and Reality (Norton Library)

The Myth of the Birth of the Hero: A Psychological Exploration of Myth

Art and Artist: Creative Urge and Personality Development

ASIN: 0691020620

Book Description

In Quest of the Hero makes available for a new generation of readers two key works on hero myths: Otto Rank's Myth of the Birth of the Hero and the central section of Lord Raglan's The Hero. Amplifying these is Alan Dundes's fascinating contemporary inquiry, "The Hero Pattern and the Life of Jesus." Examined here are the patterns found in the lore surrounding historical or legendary figures like Gilgamesh, Moses, David, Oedipus, Odysseus, Perseus, Heracles, Aeneas, Romulus, Siegfried, Lohengrin, Arthur, and Buddha.

Rank's monograph remains the classic application of Freudian theory to hero myths. In The Hero the noted English ethnologist Raglan singles out the myth-ritualist pattern in James Frazer's many-sided Golden Bough and applies that pattern to hero myths. Dundes, the eminent folklorist at the University of California at Berkeley, applies the theories of Rank, Raglan, and others to the case of Jesus. In his introduction to this selection from Rank, Raglan, and Dundes, Robert Segal, author of the major study of Joseph Campbell, charts the history of theorizing about hero myths and compares the approaches of Rank, Raglan, Dundes, and Campbell.

Customer Reviews:

Classic studies.......2006-11-14

This is an excellent and economical way to get these classic studies. Contains Lord Raglan's 22 things you need to be a hero. The first - The hero's mother is a royal virgin - the last - has one or more holy sepulchres. Must read literature for the mythologist and interesting to check how your particular hero matches up with the standards! Rank has his own list of 16 things, so if you can't make the big list, try the little one . . .

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Academic Disbelief
Great!

Jesus Christ and Mythology
Rudolf Bultmann
Manufacturer: Prentice Hall
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Paperback

General | Education | Nonfiction | Subjects | Books

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ASIN: 0023055707

Customer Reviews:

Academic Disbelief.......2005-03-10

With an articulated agenda to "demythologize" the text of the gospels, Bultmann, with a decidedly skeptical method, proceeds to cut out whatever he believes to be unoriginal in the New Testament. His method of determining which texts are worthy of removal, although presented very academically, proves to be extremely arbitrary and decidedly uninformed. Although hailed by a few as a revolutionary new way to interpret the Christian Scriptures, later scholarship has proven Bultmann's method to be tremendously biased and agenda-driven. Today he is worthy reading in order to get a good laugh, and nearly nothing fruitful can be gleaned from his observations. Don't waste your time. Don't buy this book.

Great!.......2000-04-07

This is an amazing book! It is an elegant reevaluation of whatis important in the Bible. Bultmann is an excellent New Testamentscholar, and he puts his knowledge to good use in this book. His use of existential philosophy is also very interesting. He really strips away a lot of the trappings of the Bible to get to the heart of its message. He is also a very good writer, and everything he says is very clearly conveyed. If you have any interest in Christian philosophy, I highly recommend this book.

The Astrological Foundation of the Christ Myth

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Biblical tales understood as symbolic astronomy & science

The Astrological Foundation of the Christ Myth
Malik H. Jabbar
Manufacturer: Rare Books Distributors
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Paperback

Folklore & Mythology | Social Sciences | Nonfiction | Subjects | Books

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ASIN: 1571540024

Book Description

Explores the Seminal Relationship between Mythology and Religion

Customer Reviews:

Biblical tales understood as symbolic astronomy & science.......2001-07-27

The author does a good job of identifying the astrological symbolism in the New & Old Testaments, including the solar mythos that parallels many other religious fables of the world. The author attempts to identify multiple levels of interpretation of Biblical passages, although the book is rather slim and really just scratches the surface of the levels of information encoded in the Bible. Besides the astronomical symbolism, there is also historical/racial propaganda, social engineering/moral persuasion, reference to extraterrestrial factions and activities, alchemical/spiritual symbolism for initiates, sacred geometry, and other types of coded information, involving multiple groups and agendas. A whole encyclopedia would be needed to thoroughly cover these topics.

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Jesus Christ and Mythology
Rudolf Bultman
Manufacturer: Charles Scribner's Sons
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Paperback

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JESUS CHRIST AND MYTHOLOGY
Rudolf BULTMANN
Manufacturer: Scribners
ProductGroup: Book
Binding: Hardcover

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